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The Challenge of Reasoned Debate: Addressing the Issue of Gun Violence in America

What happens in the mind when we "think it through"?

There are a lot of well-reasoned arguments out there in support of gun control. But are well-reasoned arguments enough? 

What We Now Know

Consider:

New York Times Op-Ed writer Nick Kristoff in a recent piece called Lessons From Guns and a Goose made some great points about gun violence that I wish every gun owner—and potential gun owner—in America would consider:

One study, reported in Southern Medical Journal in 2010, found that a gun is 12 times more likely to result in the death of a household member or guest than in the death of an intruder. Another study in 1993 found that gun ownership creates nearly a threefold risk of a homicide in the owner’s household…. David Hemenway, a public health specialist at Harvard, says that having a gun at home increases the risk of suicide in that household by two to four times.

Consider:

Daniel A. Simon, in a Letter to the Editor of the same paper, made some great points countering an argument one often hears from gun rights advocates that restricting gun ownership is a slippery slope:

"First, reasonable regulations do not devolve into slippery slopes. Just because the government can set a speed limit of 65 miles per hour doesn’t mean that it will then set it at 50, then 30, and pretty soon we won’t have cars. We regulate all sorts of things without falling into abysses.

Second, there is no explanation as to why any such slope doesn’t run the other way. If I can have a semiautomatic gun with 30 rounds, why can’t I have a fully automatic gun with 100 rounds or more? A stockpile of grenades? Shoulder-launched missiles? A radioactive 'dirty bomb'?"

Consider:

I thought President Obama—who has at times fared better and at times worse in debates—made some very good points recently about the need to balance our various constitutional rights when he noted that we have:

“The right to worship freely and safely; that right was denied to Sikhs in Oak Creek, Wisconsin. The right to assemble peaceably; that right was denied shoppers in Clackamas, Oregon, and moviegoers in Aurora, Colorado. That most fundamental set of rights to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, fundamental rights that were denied to college students at Virginia Tech and high school students at Columbine and elementary school students in Newtown; and kids on street corners in Chicago on too frequent a basis to tolerate.”

Two weeks ago I highlighted the new book “Reducing Gun Violence in America," a collection of very smart, well-researched essays from some of the world’s best and brightest writers on the subject on the benefits society would gain from gun control.

But are any of these arguments convincing? Are gun owners taking into account what we now know to be empirically true: that having a gun in the house is 12 times more likely to result in the death of a household member or guest than in the death of an intruder? Is this having any effect on the confidence gun owners have in owning a gun?

What We Know About How We Know

“Confidence is a feeling,” writes Daniel Kahneman, emeritus professor of psychology and of public affairs at Princeton University and a winner of the 2002 Nobel Prize in Economics, “one determined mostly by the coherence of the story and by the ease with which it comes to mind, even when the evidence for the story is sparse and unreliable…When a compelling impression of a particular event clashes with general knowledge, the impression commonly prevails... The confidence you will experience in your future judgments will not be diminished by what you just read, even if you believe every word.”

In his book Thinking Fast and Slow Kahneman writes about what he calls the “illusion of validity”—that our confidence in our judgments is overwhelmingly unrelated to the truth. Indeed, when confronted with evidence which contradicts our views rather than causing us to reevaluate our beliefs the result is that we actually harden our views.

The reason this moment—post Newtown massacre—holds the possibility of change is not because there’s new evidence to support the positives of gun control, but because folks are feeling differently about guns. Perhaps not enough folks to make enough of a difference nationwide—that remains to be seen. But something is shifting, and for the good.

Be Involved

Please contact the White House to express your support for new gun control measures. Here’s the link:  

Please sign the petitions at Demand A Plan, Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, One Million Moms for Gun Control, We The People and Americans for Responsible Solutions.

Please read my previous posts on gun control: Repairing the World: The Truth About Ending Gun Violence Now (December 20);  There is No God: Continuing Thoughts on Gun Control (December 27); Sabbath to Stop Gun Violence (January 3);  Christina’s Letter: More Thoughts on Gun Violence (January 10); Bad News/Good News (January 24); and Interfaith Call-In Event to Prevent Gun Violence (February 1)  

Your comments are welcome.

Rabbi Mark Sameth is the spiritual leader of Joyful Judaism: Pleasantville Community Synagogue an inclusive, progressive synagogue – with members from twenty towns, villages and cities all across Westchester and “A Hebrew School Your Kids Can Love.” Read The New York Times article. Follow Rabbi Mark on Twitter . Weekly meditation at the synagogue every Saturday morning at 9 am is open to the public; everyone – without exception - is welcome and warmly invited. OUR MEMBERSHIP DRIVE IS ON. See “Top Ten Reasons to Join PCS” - as well as service times and events - at www.ShalomPCS.com.

Indeed February 8, 2013 at 10:06 pm
Perhaps, yourself, the editors and those at the AOL home office should read the terms of service, because Patch has shown no consistency in what it chooses to delete from the comments page. Your terms of service is a joke. Comments are taken down purely on personal preference.
Theresa Flora February 8, 2013 at 10:14 pm
Indeed!!!
Ross Revira February 8, 2013 at 10:28 pm
Did you read his piece? He specifically came out against gun ownership in the home.
Bjorn how do you think obese kids get that way ? Their parents are killing them with food.
Let It Snow Let It Snow Let It Snow February 8, 2013 at 10:40 pm
"Being civil" is quite open to interpretation. "Being civil" is not mentioned in the terms of service. This entire effort is nothing but a joke
Bjorn Olsson February 8, 2013 at 10:52 pm
Ross, if you truly think that there is no difference between cars, food and guns in terms of harmfulness vs usefulness, it is probably pointless to even attempt a sincere discussion. For those of you who argue that it is "a people problem" rather than a gun problem, would you then also argue that Americans are a lot more inclined to murder each other than other nations? Seems to be the logical conclusion of that line of thinking. Are Americans simply less moral? Personally I do not think so.
John February 8, 2013 at 11:47 pm
In other words, it is only civil if the author of the blog and the moderators agree.
William Demarest (Editor) February 9, 2013 at 12:44 am
The letter referenced calls for support of a woman's right to make a choice. "We believe that religious matters are best left to religious communities, not politicians."
Theresa Flora February 9, 2013 at 01:12 am
@William Demarest: the rabbi signed his name to a letter asking the senator to vote to sustain President Clinton's veto of H.R. 1122, Partial-Birth Abortion Act of 1997, which banned partial birth abortion. You can call it "woman's right to choose" or some other righteous sounding euphemism, but it's sucking the brains out of a fully formed, mostly-born human being. It's violent murder of the most innocent and weakest among us. A man of the cloth should find that abhorrent. Instead, he spends his time involved in an anti-gun movement, while pretending to be a person of peace.
Theresa Flora February 9, 2013 at 01:21 am
By the way, rabbi: if you don't like guns, don't get one.
Ross Revira February 9, 2013 at 01:54 am
Bjorn moral people do not kill or maim period. Immoral people will use whatever means necessary whether it is a bomb, firearm ,knife, or rock to achieve their goal. The United States is a magnet for the best and worst people in the world. If you and the rest of the anti-gun people want to believe that guns make people act like savages that is your mistake.
James Adnaraf February 9, 2013 at 02:43 am
Rabbi Mark stated, in quoting a book, "that when we are confronted with facts that when confronted with evidence which contradicts our views rather than causing us to reevaluate our beliefs the result is that we actually harden our views."
Rabbi, could you give us an example of a time you held a poltical view, and were shown evidience contradicting your views, and you changed your views? In other words, I am curious to know, when have you been wrong on an issue? For example, i admit that in my younger days, i was not at all sympathetic to the plight of migrant workers, and did not support their efforts to improve their lot, under the leadership of Cesar Chavez. I was wrong, period. How about you, Rabbi Mark? And I ask this not to be antagonistic. I just figure that people who are always expressing their views in public should also reflect on them and recognize they have been wrong from time to time. I sure hope you respond.
Bjorn Olsson February 9, 2013 at 05:07 am
Ross, I refuse to believe that Americans are so much more immoral and homicidal than other people. People under pressure with a gun easily accessible can do a lot more damage than someone without a firearm. Therefore my conclusion must be that the insane rate of gun violence in the US stems not from a more homicidal population but rather from the fact that anyone prone to violence here will pick up a gun rather than a knife or a rock.
Let It Snow Let It Snow Let It Snow February 9, 2013 at 06:25 am
i am amazed truly amazed by this blog. You don't have to read tea leaves to see the writing on the wall. Increased restrictions on guns, additional insurance, etc. is going to do nothing. Crazy people, criminals, are not registering guns, they will purchase them anyway on the black market. While law abiding citizens are jumping through hoops and paying more and more to own a gun, criminals will be busy filing off serial numbers on a weapon they could by anywhere in fifteen minutes.
THE MOST DANGEROUS ELEMENT OF ANY GUN IS THE HUMAN FINGER ON THE TRIGGER. Take a look at the hall of fame shooters, have you seen the mug shots of the most recent trio? Take a little look-see. The images are far, far, more troubling than any assault rifle. And the one thing they have in common, they're all on psychiatric drugs. Obama has no interest in the drugging of the masses, none. No issue with jailing bankers who flat out raped this country, none. This IS just the beginning. The signing of the National Defense Act into law on New Years eve, drones overhead, Obama is not what you perceive Rabbi, not even close. You're in deep deep doo doo Rabbi, and the wrong side of this fight.
Let It Snow Let It Snow Let It Snow February 9, 2013 at 06:31 am
This politically correct white, vague, white washing of discourse is part of the disappearing act of the vanished, not vanishing 4th estate. For evidence of this, read the above offering of L. Taliaferro and Patch as a whole. Run, don't walk.
Aidan February 9, 2013 at 09:15 am
In his book Thinking Fast and Slow Kahneman writes about what he calls the “illusion of validity”—that our confidence in our judgments is overwhelmingly unrelated to the truth. Indeed, when confronted with evidence which contradicts our views rather than causing us to reevaluate our beliefs the result is that we actually harden our views."
In other words ... "What you see isn't really what you see, dummy. Fall in line." A call to the Jello people.
Aidan February 9, 2013 at 10:43 am
"We live in a society of wolves. You do not fight back by creating more sheep!"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=AdhXSj-DL1A
John February 9, 2013 at 11:55 am
It would be nice to hear from Rabbi Sameth. I think he should explain all the disconnects and hypocrisies.
Racman63 February 9, 2013 at 11:56 am
How are the rabbi's politics relevant to this particular discussion? Is it beyond your collective reasoning abilities not to conclude that the Rabbi more than likely holds views on various topics that if one were to "analyze" as closely as this would fall across the broad political continuum?
And why does every argument on this blog denigrate into pigeon holing people as liberals? As if that were a bad thing? I wear that particular badge with pride. Personally, you all sound incredibly arrogant and ignorant, and ignorant primarily of the historic roots of what passes for "conservatism" in America today. You may be pro gun, but you have no idea how intensely your opinions are being manipulated by a conservative agenda. The gun control debate is yet another issue co-opted by movement conservatism and engineered to further separate us as a society and as a nation. Meanwhile, little children died and will continue to die as a consequence not of this manipulative agenda, but of your pride in blindly defending its irrational and specious arguments. One day, the second amendment will be repealed, perhaps not in my lifetime, but it is inevitable. Reading the comments on this blog only re-energizes my commitment to making this a reality.
Ross Revira February 9, 2013 at 12:23 pm
Bjorn you have hit the nail right on the head with your comment. A convervative believes they are responsible for their actions. A liberal believes something or someone else is responsible. Taking responsibility for one's own action has been a hallmark of conservative thinking and an anathema to liberal views.
Bjorn Olsson February 9, 2013 at 04:53 pm
Let It Snow, who sells the guns to the criminals? Pretty much all guns are made by legal companies and subject to background checks, etc, so how do they end up in the black market? Someone in the chain is a criminal, no?
Bjorn Olsson February 9, 2013 at 04:59 pm
Ross, that kind of comment is pretty pointless. To claim that people who do not agree with you are ALL somehow morally and intellectually inferior is just plain silly and does nothing to further any debate. It's the equivalent of knocking the chess board over when you're losing.
Aidan February 9, 2013 at 06:29 pm
"You may be pro gun, but you have no idea how intensely your opinions are being manipulated by a conservative agenda." And you're a pristine political creature ... free of all biases presented by liberal mania? Pompous, too.
James Adnaraf February 9, 2013 at 06:35 pm
It is so common for many people who characterize themselves as liberals to claim that conservatives have "no idea" about how they are being manipulated. This is the liberal way of calling someone stupid. A lot of liberals do it frequently. Let's see their targets; Reagan (while alive), Bush (both of the former Presidents), Palin, Quayle, just to start.
I have been around, Racman63, and heard the promises that the War on Poverty would end poverty, how abortion on demand was going to curb illiegitemacy, how this social program or that social program is going to make such a huge difference, and how this one more tax increase is going to put things in shape. I remember hearing how if you voted for Goldwater, you would have war in Vietnam and riots in the cities (that is one prediction that came true!!!), how Reagan was going to vaporize the world. We remember that when Medicare was instituted in 1965, it was estimated to cost about $12 billion by 1990. Go see what it actually cost. A lot of us have analyzed history, we in fact have brains, we are not manipulated, and we view the usefulness of gun control with great scepticism. Talking about separating us as a nation, look at how Joseph Coe, who writes for one of the Patch editions, makes sweeping generalizations about people who view Roe V Wade as bad law. Racman63, many of us have brains, you just don't respect a lot of us. I have posted for respect of all views, but then again I am manipulated.
Cathy February 9, 2013 at 10:29 pm
emphasis on "reasoned" debate
not common as shown by many comments one appears to be a hypocrite by another who cannot perceive the differences yes people are the problem - they made the guns - you can argue anything you like but the truth of the matter is, there is no need for a gun other than to hurt someone or something
eatingdogfood February 9, 2013 at 10:50 pm
Is every comment going to be checked for political correctness?
eatingdogfood February 9, 2013 at 10:54 pm
Roe vs Wade will go down before the second amendment does.
Ross Revira February 10, 2013 at 01:51 am
Rosie O'Donnell that great liberal thinker is also an anti-gun advocate. Then why did she hire armed security to protect her family? Talk about hypocrites. I hope the day will never come when you will need the protection of a gun to protect your life or liberty.
Ross Revira February 10, 2013 at 01:52 am
The monitor gets paid overtime.
eatingdogfood February 10, 2013 at 03:33 pm
The reason you live in a free society is a result of people with guns!
dave February 11, 2013 at 07:23 am
these are acts of people that are beyond help. The Adam kid in Newtown, shot his mother 4 times before heading off to the school. When i think of my mom, i think of all the love and sacrificies she gave and did for me. Putting any bullets into her body just doesn't enter my thoughts. If someone whats to do harm to another person, it will happen.. Wouldn't it be nice that every time a woman was about to harmed, a policeman would be there to stop the crime. The problem is that police are trained but have not mastered the skill of ESP. To cancel gun shows does nothing, bad guys just don't want to follow the rules. To have a officer or armed person at a school will not stop someone. Most schools have over a dozen doors to enter/exit. There is nothin common about commen sense.

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McKey Rivers June 19, 2013 at 11:24 am
Robin, it was Mrs. Maglietta not I who said that the BPTA FOILed the Wasserman letter (see letterRead More date and time stamped at 4:20 PM yesterday), so please address your comments to her. Regardless, thank you for letting the rest of us know that Mrs Maglietta has little regard for the truth when it comes to advocating for her husband.
Laura Maglietta June 19, 2013 at 11:41 am
Mr. Rivers- In reading your comments over the years, i find that your general rule is "neverRead More let the truth get in the way of a point that you are trying to make." Again, I didn't write an 11 page letter to the school; I didn't contact an attorney. Your friend, Mr. Wasserman did. That is the point. As usual, you use smoke and mirrors to deflect the real issues. Wasserman has not rescinded his 11 page notice. Why? People have a right to know. And despite what you think, people are smarter than you give them credit for.
Mickey Rivers June 19, 2013 at 12:14 pm
Yes counselor, you do have a way with torturing the truth and the facts to fit your version ofRead More reality. It seriously erodes your credibility. The jury pool (residents of Briarcliff) is quite educated and sees through your court room antics. Continuously insulting intelligent people is a poor strategy to win them over to your view.
Lisa Buchman (Editor) June 17, 2013 at 02:43 pm
What are folks hearing about tomorrow's vote? Will there be a good turnout at the polls?
Briarcliff PTA Executive Board June 18, 2013 at 10:02 am
We are hoping for a great turnout today. Briarcliff school district residents, please urge yourRead More neighbors and friends to get out and vote!
Lisa Buchman (Editor) June 17, 2013 at 03:04 pm
Thanks Kathleen - important information about a significant part of the pet population!
Lisa Buchman (Editor) June 17, 2013 at 03:05 pm
Thanks Kathleen! Important information about a nice way to connect senior pets with senior humans!
W Obermeyer June 11, 2013 at 02:29 pm
I am afraid we may be experiencing the calm before another storm. Most likely the aftermath of theRead More BOE budget hearing tonight will be more of a nightmare than a pleasant dream.
Lisa Jenner June 11, 2013 at 02:36 pm
I am afraid that when people become civilized, they become silent.
Lisa Buchman (Editor) June 12, 2013 at 11:42 am
Thanks for putting yourself out there, Lisa! I hope others can contribute meaningfully to anyRead More discussion of community issues brought forth by thoughtful readers like you.
Brandon June 12, 2013 at 09:36 am
This is brilliant!
Mae Isaac June 12, 2013 at 09:49 am
This would be wonderful - I dread trying to drive to any of the schools that way. What about a leftRead More turn lane on to Pleasantville Road from 100 for school days? It might help those of us who live so close and yet have to drive in the opposite directions to reach the schools!
Tim June 14, 2013 at 07:53 am
Great idea in the mean time while we wait another 10 years maybe drivers could keep to the left whenRead More turning left, instead of blocking peeps trying to turn right. Also drivers need to stop blocking the entrance to Dunkin donuts etc.
Mickey Rivers June 11, 2013 at 09:52 am
Mr. O'Reilly is asking good questions in his post. I respect him for his approach. These areRead More difficult questions and as school districts continue to be squeezed at both ends (spiraling cost of benefit and pension costs at one end and tax-cap compliance choking the revenue side at other end) they will all continue be faced with these difficult questions. If school districts wait too long to develop reasonable decision trees to solve these issues, then our meddling friends in Albany will feel compelled to swoop in and screw it up royally. It is in our collective best interests to begin work now to develop and apply a thought process and resolution matrix to this issue before Albany does it for us. That requires two things. First, communities must put aside their differences and work together in a "non-partisan" manner toward local solutions that work for their district. Next, districts must collaborate and share ideas in an effort to share their ideas and help each other. At the moment, no one has the answers to Mr. O'Reilly's questions. I respect him for asking these questions and not offering solutions or opinions in his post. I also respect him for not calling out any particular district as we all all know these are issues that all districts faced this year universally. This issue will begin to compound annually if we all don't find a way to pull together and work towards solutions.
Lisa Jenner June 11, 2013 at 10:26 am
As a retired school teacher who is collecting a pension (to which I contributed for many years) andRead More is still using benefits (to which I contribute), let's remember that it is not only the teachers' pension and benefits that are squeezing the school budgets, but also, as the Briarcliff BOE pointed out, all those unfunded mandates. All of the BOEs have their hands tied regarding so many of their expenditures, that they will have to cut programs. Excellent questions, Mr. O'Reilly.
Mickey Rivers June 11, 2013 at 03:30 pm
Unfunded mandates are also a big issue for school districts. However, the teachers pensions andRead More benefits are a huge issue that must be addressed and recalibrated. It is time for teacher's pensions and benefits to be remodeled to look like those in the private sector. In the private sector, pensions are all but extinct - replaced largely by 401(k) plans (and in the case of teachers 403(b) plans where contributions are made by the employee. In terms of health benefits, in the private sector most companies pay a maximum of 60% of an employee's health care (and other benefits) premiums - not the 80% that is paid by school districts for teachers. This is financially unsustainable and needs to be addressed before it bankrupts school districts.
robin June 11, 2013 at 10:52 am
Mr. Borrel-Sorry if I came across as confrontational, that was not my intention. You should handleRead More your concerns as you think is best, however, I don't know what you will accomplish voicing your opinion in the Patch. It should also be noted, according to several high school teachers, that there are students who bring budget discussions into the classrooms.
Jay Borrel June 11, 2013 at 11:29 am
Thank you for your comments. I am sure that students do discuss, but the educator should addressRead More from a neutral stand point, just like an open discussion about religion or other politics.
Lisa Jenner June 11, 2013 at 12:25 pm
As a former high school teacher, I was constantly fending off attempts by students to divert me fromRead More teaching, and current events, local or otherwise, were a popular means to this end. Having said that, I, too, have heard of teachers "pontificating" about the budget, which, of course, is totally inappropriate. Let's hope the teachers in Briarcliff do know better and that the administration keeps a watchful eye. On a totally different topic, I have to laugh, Robin, at you looking in the directory for Mr. Borrel. The directory is my first resource for all people Briarcliff, forgetting they might not have children in the schools.
JanFisher June 8, 2013 at 10:05 pm
This is truly progress. Will both of you be taking down your negative comments now to really andRead More meaningfully get the ball rolling and to move beyond mere words? It will be good work when it is backed by real actions. I have not posted anything negative this entire time so really nothing has been accomplished yet except promises to behave. But I am truly glad that both of you are now committed to a standard of decency in public exchanges. Have a great weekend!
Lisa Jenner June 8, 2013 at 11:41 pm
I have read and re-read Mr. O'Reilly's thoughts on the BOE meeting and I will try to be fair aboutRead More this. I will admit that Mr. O'Reilly used some choice adjectives (strange, mysterious, nefarious) and asked a couple of somewhat inflammatory rhetorical questions (Will Mr. Wasserman serve his BOE time on the baseball diamond?), but I would suggest that if you disregard the rhetoric, he has presented a fairly factual presentation of what transpired at the meeting. Do you disagree?
JanFisher June 9, 2013 at 05:54 am
Lisa - my decision to write at all was out of excitement about the opportunity to help infuseRead More decency into these public exchanges. I have had my say and it has been positive. Quite honestly, I think the community at-large and the Briarcliff community are really tired of all of the public infighting on the Patch. I am committed to our schools and children and I choose to use my very limited free time and energy to volunteer for the schools when I can. Again, I do have many opinions and would love to speak with you in person- maybe we can do some good together. My cell - 439-0203.